Ep102 Sara Nay - Stop Outsourcing Your Marketing Blindly: The Anti-Agency Model That's Changing Everything

Jason Croft  0:00  
Now that you can do you by default, kind of ramp up quantity.

Sara Nay  0:06  
The opportunity to stand out, from a marketing standpoint, isn't more volume. It's taking a step back, and it's using AI solutions very strategically to make more of an impact versus more of a word count.

Jason Croft  0:21  
Welcome to strategy in action, where we reveal how industry leaders build real market gravity, the force that naturally attracts opportunities, partnerships and profits. You get raw insights, proven frameworks and strategies that actually move the needle in your business. Let's get started. Sarah NE is on the show today. We're talking all about marketing. Of course, she is the new CEO of duct tape marketing. Many of you, if you've been in this marketing space for a while, know that brand, that book by John Jantz, duct tape marketing has been around and helping individuals with their marketing, companies with their marketing for so long now. It's been fantastic, and it was great to have Sarah on the show. She's got a new book coming out that we get into as well. And I love this idea of not only taking control of your marketing as a solopreneur, as a small business, really embracing that when it's not maybe your love skill set, any of that really the importance of taking control of it, meaning knowing what's going on and really being purposeful with it, and then letting it go. Because if you aren't that marketer, and even if you are, if you're busy running a company, run your company, and we get into just fantastic ways that Sarah and duct tape are helping companies do exactly that in new ways. Of course, there's aspects of AI that that can really help, but one of the key things that we get into is something that's at the core of duct tape, which is this idea of strategy, first, actions, next, tactics, next. And that's so key, and they're really approaching it this way. And I find the exact same thing when you don't just use the latest and greatest, like AI for the output or the tactics and the creation of everything, but you're actually using it at the front end in that strategy, deep research, using it as a thought partner, using in that first creative aspect of creating content and marketing materials and even initiatives, and then also through the process, of course, using it all all the way through, but having that great human aspect as well, and the insights and when you can bring someone in who understands the core principles that are timeless principles of marketing, that's huge. So that's exactly it, you know, taking control of this marketing and then letting it go when you have that trusted partner to let it go to and know that it's really getting covered and taken care of all along the way. All right, let's jump in. Serena,

Sara Nay  3:35  
welcome to the show. Thanks for having me on. Jason,

Jason Croft  3:39  
absolutely. This is, this is so fun. You and I just now connected, actually, just a little while ago, on LinkedIn, and now for the first time, having a conversation. And I'm excited for this topic and you being on the show to talk about, specifically this topic of marketing, because I geek out on market. It's just my world. I love it. And hopefully we'll convince a few people who maybe aren't marketing geeks like the two of us that it is really important and they can kind of embrace it a little bit. I'm excited for this, just to let everyone know too. So what I want to dig into today is this idea of taking control of your marketing. If you're a solo consultant coach, do I really need that stuff I know probably should, you know, taking control of it enough, or if you're whatever stage you are really taking control of it and then letting that go. Because, unless you're a marketer in a marketing geek like us, you need to be letting it go and outsource and all that'll be really clear. Sarah's an expert, and you'll learn why really quickly, Sarah, you are now the CEO of duct tape marketing, which you've been with them 15 years of their kind of 30.

Sara Nay  4:56  
Yeah, December 2010, was my first month at duct tape marketing. Hmm,

Jason Croft  5:01  
that's awesome. Like you talk about a story of working your way up and through an organization, it is from the ground floor up to the top. That has been your that's awesome. And I want to touch on some of that too. I've got some some questions in there of going through that. For those who don't know, if you haven't been in this marketing world any length of time, I mean, John Jantz, the founder of duct tape marketing, author of the books around duct tape marketing, I mean, that's, that's OG right there. That's phenomenal. That's great stuff. It sounds like you've been along for a lot of that ride, right? What got you there and what's kept you along the way of specifically this marketing world and being on the on the duct tape train? Yeah?

Sara Nay  5:53  
Absolutely. So John started the business back about 30 years ago now because he realized that in the small business space, a lot of people were over complicating marketing, and so it was really difficult for small businesses to essentially, quote, unquote, buy marketing services because they didn't really know what they were buying or paying for. And so he created a systematic approach to marketing that always started with strategy and then transitioned into tactics, but in a very specific way, where the small business owner could understand, like exactly what was being done from a marketing perspective, and when and for what purpose, and was it working or not. And so he created a systematic approach to marketing. And so that was about 30 years or so ago that that was kind of brought to life. And he really did it, because there is a lot of complication in the small business world. And so I heard those stories, and I joined the team, and I started working with clients myself over the years. And I can't tell you how many times small business owners because I've led our sales for a number of years, and so I can't tell you how many times over those years, small business owners have come to me and been like, marketing doesn't work. I'm so frustrated. I've paid so much money for marketing, I'm working harder than ever. I didn't start this business to become a marketer. This agency is spending all of my money, and I don't know if it's working like I've heard so many stories over the years, and so I've seen those stories, but I've also, I've heard those stories, but I've also seen stories of transformation when they can come in and work with us, when we create the marketing strategy and we give them clarity, confidence, control and customers by going through it, and I can see the transformation happen from marketing doesn't work to marketing does work, and I can stay in my zone of genius As a business owner, and that's what still drives me after 15 years of the company, is helping people get from burnout to joy and excitement in their job. Again.

Jason Croft  7:52  
I love that because it seems like it seems like that's the the light up part, even more than the marking part. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems to be like your zone of genius, right? You're helping them stay in their zone of genius. That that training aspect and sharing what's possible, because you've got an uphill anybody in the marketing world has an uphill battle, because anybody that they talk to nine times out of 10, they've had that experience that you just described. I worked with somebody else. They didn't know what they were doing. They or they intentionally, you know, were shady with this. Like, I've heard all the stories, right? And it is that battle to sort of, you know, basically, earn that trust more than just coming in cold, you've got to dig yourself out first, and then just to go down that road a little bit, because you've been in sales with the company as well. What? What are some of those things that you've kind of done to, like, try to build that trust really quickly and overcome the negative that they've already experienced.

Sara Nay  9:05  
Yeah, I mean really. And I trade a lot on sales to the agencies and consultants that we work with as well, and what I talk about is actually listening to the person that's speaking to you, and what are their pain points and what are their frustrations, and then when you're talking about your services, making them as relevant to their specific unique pain points as possible, not just like, here's my pitch deck and here's what I'm going to talk about. I don't care what you just told me. And so you know, if someone's telling me, like, I've worked with different agencies in the past, and I paid them every month, and then they would send me this complicated report, and I had no idea what the metrics were, I talk about how we're different than that. I talk about how when we work with clients, we set up a project management board and you can see exactly what we're working on and when and what the deadlines are. We don't just send you a complicated report every month. We spend an hour on the call with you, digesting the metrics and talking through what they actually mean and why they're important, and educate. You. So when you if you leave us one day, you're in a better spot. Leave it better when you find it, you're in a better spot than when you came on board with us. And so a lot of it's coming down to, like, if, if we try to do things differently than a lot of the complaints that we hear in the marketing agency space, the outsourcing space. And so I'm not just telling these stories because they sound nice in a sales call like I'm telling these stories, because we've put things in place to be different, because if a lot of people are frustrated because they don't know what their agency is doing, we're going to go over the top. We're going to over communicate, and then that ultimately leads to long term retention for us and our clients as well.

Jason Croft  10:36  
Yeah, that's That's fantastic, both that listening piece, plus plus, just that core element that you have, that transparency. People definitely in the marketing world don't lead with that enough. It's just like, I don't know, here's the stuff we're gonna do. Maybe it'll work. Maybe it won't. It's so easy to get into this space and hang that shingle of I'm an agency that so many people do it and they get they get burned that way.

Sara Nay  11:03  
I think some of the challenges a lot of times in the small business space. So that's who we serve specifically. Is the small business owner is hiring marketing agencies, solutions, outsourced partners, whoever they are contractors, and they're trusting them that they're going to do what's right and what's best, because a lot of times, the CEO or founder doesn't have a ton of marketing knowledge and experience. And so I think that's also challenging, because the person buying marketing doesn't know what they need to do from a marketing standpoint. And so if they're not bringing in the right people, again, things can go south fairly quickly. And so that's, I think that's also another challenge. And so that's where we I always talk to people when they're considering us versus other solutions out there, if they're bringing us in as a fractional CMO, I'm like, regardless who you go with, it doesn't matter if it's duct tape marketing or some other person you're talking to make sure that on the front end, they're going to spend the time to get to know your business very deeply from a strategic standpoint before they do anything from an execution standpoint, because if they dive straight into execution without understanding things like your target market and your core message and your customer journey, let's say they go out and launch paid ads, they don't know who to target with what message, or where to direct them, or how to nurture them, so they're going to waste your money on paid ads. And so that's always my advice. If you're a business owner, if you're listening to this and you're like, I want to you know, like, I want to, you know, work with an outsourced solution, like make sure they have some sort of package in place where they spend at least, you know, 30 days getting to know your business before they will start executing. You do have to be patient during that time period, but you're going to ultimately save more money on the long run versus if someone is going to dive into execution for you.

Jason Croft  12:43  
Oh, yeah. And to jump in with that too, it's, it's also not just a checklist. What do you do? Who do you serve? What it needs to be interactive. And this pulling, okay, you're coming to us because you want Facebook ads. Awesome. Why do you think you need Facebook ads? Yeah. What are you trying to accomplish with that? What are you trying to do with your business overall? Because it's great if you're even having that conversation with a business owner that they're considering marketing and hiring somebody for marketing, because plenty of folks don't even do that. Either they've been burned or they just don't see it. It's not their world. So hopefully they're embracing that fact when they come to you. That's the other piece that I know you do so well, what like the first 30 days is it is this? It is the plan you're digging in with them. And like you just said, Yes, I know you want to go right now, but this is so important, because if, if this is where you want to take your business, but you think you need Facebook at it may be like, that's not even get you anywhere close to this. So I, I love that piece. Is there, is there ever push back in that exploratory stage of, like, it's going too slow or but then they, I imagine they get a light bulb moment during that? Yeah,

Sara Nay  14:15  
absolutely. I mean, I think people are like, wait, but I just want the phone to ring yesterday, you know. And so there does require some level of patience, but I just reinforced like we will play the guessing game and we will waste money if we don't take this step back. Because, as you said, you know, we have something called the marketing strategy pyramid, and the bottom layer is business strategy, middle layer is marketing strategy, top layer is team strategy. And so, you know, everything we do from a marketing strategy standpoint, is guided based on the business strategy. And so what is the business trying to accomplish? Where are they currently, from a revenue standpoint, where do they want to be in one year and three years from now? What do they want to be known for in the world? What are their mission, vision, values? Like you have to understand all of that stuff deeply. Yeah. Before you could ever even talk about marketing strategy. And so we've even had clients come to us, and maybe they haven't really thought about some of that stuff. And so they're bringing us in from a marketing perspective, but we're actually end up guiding the conversation around their business strategy first, so we can develop a marketing strategy out of it. Our marketing strategy process is a series of three meetings, and we actually just had a midpoint meeting with a client last week. And so the first part of strategy is really a lot of just like research. And so I always tell clients going into that, you know, we're going to be sharing a lot of stuff that you know, and also some stuff that maybe you haven't thought of or don't know. But our goal is to understand your business deeply so we can actually create a marketing plan as kind of phase two of our strategy. And so with that client that we did the midpoint call with last week, he was like, we didn't do any marketing firm at this point. We literally just did research and shared with him. And he was like, I can tell already that I made the right decision moving forward with you all, because you understand my business already on such a deep level that I know that you're going to be a really great fit to market it moving forward. And I think it was great that he acknowledged that, because that's exactly why we do strategy is so we can get everyone aligned from a team standpoint, as like, what are we going to do, and why does it matter? And who are we speaking to? Like, there's so much that goes into that, but we need to get everyone aligned to then actually be able to move to execution together. And so yes, I think people then tend to want, you know, quicker fixes sometimes, but I always just reinforce like we could waste your money, or we can take a step back and we could actually do it strategically and give you a lot of more clarity and confidence in the in the long run, so you can believe marketing does work. Again.

Jason Croft  16:46  
Well, yeah, cause, if you don't do that, what? What's a win, right? If you don't establish where we're going, what are those metrics and markers? And again, I think that. I think that goes back to the category of, hey, even if you don't use us make sure you're asking that needs to be in there. Hey, this is what we're delivering on, not just X amount of assets and you know the tactics out there, but what are we measuring it? What's what makes us a win? And if they're not asking, you, business owner, what you consider a win, there's, there's another, another red flag there.

Sara Nay  17:25  
Yeah, exactly. And that's how you should that's how, like, every good strategy creation should end. Is like, Okay, here's the priorities, like, What's success look like, and then track that, you know, on a weekly, daily, however, monthly basis. Talk about it on a monthly basis, and then use those metrics to guide your quarterly strategic planning moving forward. Because if you agreed, success looks like this, but you're not hitting the mark on that specific project. Does it make sense to give it more time, or does it make sense to say, Okay, let's shift. This is not going to work for our audience, or it's not resonating, let's shift to something else. And so it all starts with creating the strategy, but then, as you said, identifying success metrics and then having conversations and paying attention to those metrics and then using them to guide any planning moving forward. Because that's a huge area where a lot of small businesses Miss as well as they just start executing marketing, and they don't have proper tracking in place, and they just keep executing because it's what they always have done, but they have no idea what's actually bringing in their leads. And so oftentimes, like, if you can take a step back and actually look at your numbers, you can simplify your efforts, because you can focus on the channels that actually are performing, versus doing all of the channels. Okay.

Jason Croft  18:38  
Oh yeah, I love that too. And I imagine with any business working with you, that they get a comfort level really quickly, because I I can feel that from you, right, that confidence that is absolutely, hey, here's what we're doing, right? It's that, it's, it's this thing here we're doing the Yeah, and that alone wipes out the majority of folks who they've probably talked to before. And that's that's so important. And this idea that we're digging into, I think all of these are subsets of taking control of your marketing. And you know. Okay, I really need to do this one. Is that strategy piece that I know you and the company like that? Is it like strategy first tactics second? It's very good fit with strategy action the show. Yeah, right. Like strategy first, then the action. And that's part of that. And taking that, that control, also part of it is and where the letting go part comes in. In my opinion, too, is okay. I'm going to take control and find that trusted partner and make sure that they're educating me enough so that I do feel in control without needing to do it myself. So describe, to me, you've got kind of two main tracks, two or three kind of tracks. How you help people in that arena, describe for us that so we have an even better grasp of that, of who you work with in those in I think there's a certification side, and there's all that good stuff. Yeah,

Sara Nay  20:20  
we have two sides of our business. And so one is when we work directly with our small business clients, which is a lot of what we've been talking about today. And so that's where we come in, and we create a marketing strategy. But we've had a bit of shift on that side of our business. And so before, the last, like six months or so, honestly, we've been operating as a traditional marketing agency, and so we would come in, we create strategy, we'd sit in the fractional cmo seats. That's where we were a bit different for our clients. So we would continue to lead their strategy or in their marketing execution, but then we would execute for our clients. And so, you know, our team can do everything from like websites to content SEO to all the things, but recently we've made a shift. I'm actually writing a book on this exact topic, but recently we've made a shift to what we're even calling a bit of an anti agency model, where we are coming in and we are still creating strategy for the clients based on the business strategy, but then when we get to the team strategy piece, which is after you've identified, like, what you're going to do and why from a marketing perspective, then you can analyze your team structure, and you can answer like, Who, who, or what's going to get this done at this point. And so now, instead of doing all of the execution for our clients, we're actually shifting where we're enabling their internal teams to handle a lot of the execution, and so I think it's an incredible opportunity right now in the small business space, because a couple of things with fractional CMOS, you're able to get high level senior advisors to lead your marketing at a fraction of a price that would cost bringing in a CMO. A lot of small businesses just can't justify that salary because of marketing budget. And so you're able to bring in fractionals for a fraction of the price. But then also, because of the evolution of AI, you're able to have a much leaner marketing team. And so I'm not necessarily saying fire your internal marketing team by any means, because how I think of AI is, I think, is it elevates humans to be able to do better work. And so with the evolution of AI, though, before with marketing org charts, I would say, you know, you either need to outsource it, or you need to have, like, a paid specialist, SEO specialist, a social specialist, a content specialist, all of the things. Now there's AI, systems, agents, tools that are being developed that can really do the heavy lifting for the execution. So I believe as long as people have marketing knowledge and skills, they can oversee more areas of marketing than they ever did before. And so what we do with clients in the team strategy section is, again, we stay on as a fractional CMO, we analyze who they already have on their team, and then we up level those people by layering an AI systems below them to help with the marketing execution. And so no longer does a small business, in my mind, have to outsource things like content production, blog posts, social of that stuff, because now they have the tools that weren't available before. So that's one side of our business, and that's where we're focusing on a lot. But we also do certify and train marketing consultants, agencies, fractional CMOS in our approach as well. And so a lot of what we're teaching that audience right now, the agencies and the fractional CMOS is how to shift from doing execution for clients to leading strategy, leading execution up leveling internal teams.

Jason Croft  23:52  
I love what's at the core of all of this on both sides is this strategy piece, and I find myself, though, sitting in the seat of someone who's, again, not in this marketing world. What does that mean? Beyond Oh, should we do SEO? Should we do Facebook ads? Should we do YouTube like? Beyond that, give me some examples of really strategy and how that has shifted, something that's maybe in the world. Now, I know it's industry dependent, for sure, but something that's maybe a kind of a seismic shift. Now, again, not the technology, the doing, the AI this, but in overall, how audiences are reacting and things like that. What's new in that strategy space, and what are you looking for when you start working with a client? Yeah,

Sara Nay  24:51  
of course, it's good question, because there are so many different definitions of marketing strategy. Some people think it's essentially just a list of tactics, which, in our mind, is a lot bigger. In that. And so with strategy, we think of it in two phases. The first phase is research, the second phase is planning. And so when we're creating a marketing strategy for a business, we're doing discovery, where's the business today? And so we're doing an online audit of their total online presence, but also their branding and marketing elements that we can find to just kind of get a baseline where they're at, and then we're doing competitive research. We're interviewing some of their best clients for reading any reviews we can find online to then generate personas or ideal client profiles, and then messaging that resonates with them. And so that's the research phase of strategy is you have to nail who you're targeting with what message. If you haven't nailed those things, you're wasting money on marketing. And then after that, we present that to a client in like a midpoint meeting. And then after that, is more of the planning phase. And so then we map out the customer journey, and we have our own version. It's how can people get to know like trust, strive by repeat and refer a client. And so we're mapping out where are there gaps and opportunities? We're then saying, Okay, from a content perspective, what's the strategy? What are the four to six biggest growth priorities? And then we put that all into an execution calendar for for 90 days. So we're always working in like three month sprints, because you're also identifying what metrics are you gonna track, like we talked about earlier, and then you're adjusting the plan based on those metrics. It's always been hard to plan out further than three months. Now it's impossible, because of AI and everything that's changing. And so I always recommend, like, three months at a time, deep dive in the metrics adjust as things evolve and develop. And so that's always been our approach. But how things are changing is with the evolution of AI, it's allowed us to do better research faster for clients, and it's made the strategic element of it easier for small businesses to bring in. And so, for example, one of the components I talked about was competitive research as part of our research, before we would go out and we'd look at competitors websites we analyze manually, maybe we'd pull some like SEO reports and stuff like that. But now we still do all of that, but we also pull a deep research report using chat GPT. Maybe takes, you know, five to 10 minutes to generate that, and then you have a multi page document that's comparing the business to their top competitors in whichever ways you direct it to. And so how things have changed is, it's, it's, again, it's made levels of research accessible in the small business world that was not accessible before, which is really exciting. And then, obviously, and so that's how it shift, like the strategic perspective. But then, you know, execution is also changing pretty drastically when it comes to the evolution of AI as well. Because, you know, in the past, if someone was writing a blog post, they would research, they would write the outline, identify keywords, write the blog post, edit it, optimize it from an SEO standpoint, schedule it on WordPress, and that was like a human doing all of those pieces. And so now the evolution of AI, that human can use AI to do the research and to create the initial outline and to create the initial blog post, but then they still need to edit it on the end. But they're shifting really from doing to orchestrating a system ultimately, and so they're able to take on more capacity. And so that's really how it's shifting a lot of the execution side of things for us is it's helping us move people from in the weeds to being able to be a bit higher level, and therefore being more strategic and focusing on better communication and empathy and all the things that humans and creativity, and all the things that humans really do well when set up for success

Jason Croft  28:39  
now that you can do you by default, kind of ramp up quantity. And this isn't a quantity versus quality, because now you can have both so much better. Do you ramp up quantity or, I guess, just as yes or no question, or does that really come into it? Is there still you could do too much if,

Sara Nay  29:03  
yeah, I think we really didn't ramp up quantity with any of our clients. What I think we ramped up is quality, because going back to that blog post example, like you can now do a deep research report on this topic, to then create an outline to then create this really good blog posts based on all of that, where a human to do all of those steps, it would have taken them so much longer. And so it's not like we're gonna, like, spit out more and more volume, but it's like we can spend more time improving content and less time writing every word. And so again, I think of, really, I think of AI as elevating the impact, not just creating more noise. And I think a lot of people are bringing in things like chat, GPT and cloud and different tools, and they just try to do more and more volume, but then all of a sudden, it's just, honestly, it's more and more noise that people are getting tired of. I mean, if you look at LinkedIn right now, most of the content on there feels very AI generated. Needed, and it's not working, and people are getting less engagement, and people are tuning people out because it's it's busy, it's a lot. And so I think the opportunity to stand out from a marketing standpoint, isn't more volume. It's taking a step back, and it's using AI solutions very strategically to make more of an impact versus more of a word count.

Jason Croft  30:24  
No, that's perfect. Yeah, I want to get I want to make sure we before we wrap it, we dig into the to the book that you mentioned. So I'm excited for you from just did the process, and then this, this coming out. Tell us the title and and the goal of that book and where you are with

Sara Nay  30:41  
it, of course. So I just finished writing it. It's called Unchained, breaking free from broken marketing models. As we mentioned earlier, John, our founder, has written seven books, and people have been asking me for a while now, like, when are you gonna write a book? Are you gonna write a book? And I was, I was like, I'll get to it. But I really wasn't, like, lit up about something until recently, and so that's what made me dive into writing the book. And it's really written for small business owners that are feeling this sense of confusion. Maybe they're outsourcing marketing. It's not really working for them. And so the book is broken up into a couple of different parts, but the whole first part of it is focusing on what is still relevant in marketing today with the evolution that we're going through. And so why is it still very important to understand your ideal clients and your messaging and telling your story and being authentic? So it touches on a lot of like the the things that are still relevant today to focus on, but then it shifts and talks about how things are changing and how things are different. And so I talk about the anti agency model, I talk about the new org chart, I talk about the fractional cmo approach. But really the goal is to help business owners bring back in marketing in house by, you know, potentially working with a fractional CMO or a strategic advisor of some sort, so they can really stay in their zone of genius, their fractional can run their marketing, and then their team can be up leveled with AI solutions. And so that's the idea of breaking free from broken models like I really don't think that continuing to pay an agency for execution forever is going to be the thing that people do. I already see a lot of small businesses bringing in AI solutions, but I also see a lot of small businesses struggling with that, because it's not tool first and then strategy. It's strategy before. We've always said tactics. Now we're saying strategy before technology. And so you have to understand, like, what are you actually trying to accomplish? What are your growth priorities? Who's on your team currently? What AI solutions can we bring under them? And then you're ready to bring in the solutions, but then you have to train AI strategically, and then you have to put systems and processes on the back end of them in order to ensure consistency. And so AI is an incredible, I think, opportunity in the marketing space, but if you're not bringing again in strategically, you are probably creating a lot of confusion within your internal team and also to the people that you're targeting. So that book is set up to always, always, our mission is simplifying marketing. The goal behind it is to simplify the evolution that we're going through with AI right now in the small business space,

Jason Croft  33:24  
yeah, and it seems like to clarify the noise that we're hearing, right? It's because we just, like we talked about earlier, like we hear strategy, strategy, strategy, and just like, Yeah, okay, what is that? Again, you know? What actually, is that right? And in a lot of those things. So I love the idea of the first part of the book that you talk about, because it is okay. I've heard this 100 times, but what does that really mean? And why is that important? Again, if someone's not there reading and digging into marketing, haven't internalized that, that why that customer research is so important. And those are, sounds like the beginning is, are those timeless principles of marketing that? And, and the little refresher of, it's, it's, it's accessible. Oh, I get it, yeah, yeah,

Sara Nay  34:16  
absolutely. And being on the strategy in action podcast, as we are, it's very much formatted each chapter is, you know, here's what to think about, here's what's important, but then here's like, actual action steps that you should implement before you move on to the next chapter. And so it's very much taking in a concept, either a timeless one or a new one, and then taking action on that concept. So you're able to walk away with actual results or new thinking versus just another book that goes on your bookshelf.

Jason Croft  34:44  
Oh yeah, that's great. What you kind of goal release date, hoping, hoping for

Sara Nay  34:52  
by early, late August, early September, is what we're shooting for soon or right now, but I'll have on our website. Site will have an opportunity for people to pre order hopefully in the next two weeks as well.

Jason Croft  35:05  
Awesome. I'm excited for it. I love what you're doing over the whole company is doing. It's exciting to see you in this role. Just just killing me, because I feel that, that passion for you again, not just the it's like, you happen to be in the marketing world, and I'm sure there's plenty of passion and creativity with that, but, but helping these business owners with that aspect of their business, it seems like that's where the real passion comes through for you.

Sara Nay  35:36  
Yeah, it's funny that you pick up on that, because I tell people like, I love marketing. I've been doing it for a long time. But I love operations, I love mindset. I love helping people grow, and so marketing is an avenue that I can be able to help people in those ways as well. So,

Jason Croft  35:53  
fantastic. Okay, where do people go? Who needs to reach out? Who's like, Okay, this is it. I mean, I think we've painted that picture with the small business owner, but who exactly needs to reach out and how to how do they do so?

Sara Nay  36:03  
Yeah, absolutely. So small business owners, if you're listening to this and you feel like you don't have enough clarity and confidence in your marketing, we'd love to connect with you and help you out. Duct tape marketing is our website, or if you're an agency, fractional CMO or consultant, and you're thinking about navigating this shift of empowering internal teams versus handling the execution yourself. We do have a full program dedicated to that as well, also on our website. And then I'm Sarah nay on LinkedIn as well, and very active, so we'd love to connect

Jason Croft  36:31  
with you there as well. Fantastic, Sarah. Thank you so much for being on This is this has

Sara Nay  36:36  
been awesome. Thanks for having me on, Jason. I appreciate it. Thanks

Jason Croft  36:39  
for joining us on strategy and action. Remember true industry leaders don't chase opportunities. They attract them. Want to build your own market gravity. Visit media leads co.com See you next time you.